Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs

Issue 3 - Evidence - Meeting of February 7, 2007

OTTAWA, Wednesday, February 7, 2007

The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:13 p.m. to study on the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces, veterans of war and peacekeeping missions and members of their families, in recognition of their services to Canada.

Senator Michael A. Meighen ( Chairman ) in the chair.

[ English ]

The Chairman: Today's meeting will focus in particular on the commemorative activities, war cemeteries and memorials keeping alive the memories of our veterans' achievements and sacrifices.

Appearing before us today is Major-General Clive Addy, President of the Canadian Battlefields Foundation; Bradley N. Hall, Secretary-General of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission; and, on behalf of Veterans Affairs Canada, Robert Mercer, Assistant Deputy Minister, in charge of the Vimy Event 2007. With him is Émile Gallant, Acting Director of National and International Memorials.

My name is Michael A. Meighen. I am a senator from Ontario and the chair of this subcommittee. Before beginning our formal testimony, I will introduce the members of the committee.

Unfortunately, Senator Kenny is not with us today because of illness, but we have Senator Atkins from Ontario. He came to the Senate in 1986 with more than 27 years in the field of communications. He is the former president of Camp Associates Advertising Limited and served as an advisor to former Premier Davis of Ontario and to the former Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Robert Stanfield. He is also a member of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence.

The deputy chair of the subcommittee is Senator Day from New Brunswick. He is Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, and he is a member of the bars of New Brunswick, Ontario and Quebec, as well as being a Fellow of the Intellectual Property Institute of Canada. He is a former President and CEO of the New Brunswick Forest Products Association and a former President of the Alumni Association of the Royal Military Colleges Club of Canada.

That comprises our official membership, but we are also graced with the presence of Senator Downe, who, while not a member of our subcommittee, is a regular attendee. He is from Prince Edward Island and was appointed to the Senate in 2003. He is currently a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade and the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets, and Administration.

We are always pleased to welcome our colleague, Senator Dallaire. He is from Quebec representing the Gaspésie, and he also sits on the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights.

We also have with us Senator Banks from Alberta. He chairs the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment, and Natural Resources, and he is a member of the parent committee, the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence.

The representatives from the department will be pleased to answer questions dealing with Vimy with the exception of anything relating to invitations: who will be invited and so forth. In terms of the event itself, I gather Mr. Mercer is prepared to discuss the event as much as possible.

I call upon Major-General Clive Addy, President of the Canadian Battlefields Foundation, to make his presentation.

[ Translation ]

Major-general Clive Addy, President, Canadian battlefields Foundation: Mr. Chairman, it is a privilege for me to speak to the committee about the history, the mandates and the accomplishments of our Foundation. I understand that I am here today to contribute to the study of the options and future directions available to the federal government, through the Department of Veterans Affairs, for the remembrance and celebration of the sacrifices made by our older and younger veterans.

The flexible, concrete, interesting and effective implementation of our study trips, which has allowed us to visit several battlefields, is a realistic, effective and popular example of the efforts made to ensure that future generations remember those sacrifices. It ensures the durability of the words engraved on the back marble of the fountain in our Canadian Garden at the Caen Memorial, which reveal a mission for all of us and not simply a seasonal thought: Nulla dies umquam memori vos eximet aevo.

[ English ]

``Nothing shall ever blot you from the memory of time.''

It should not be surprising to all of you. It is a short walk to the National War Memorial from here if you go east, and you will see the same words at the site of a recently dedicated Valiants Memorial. These commemoration sites were but two of many concepts, not the least of which is the Canadian War Museum, emanating from the brain of a fine and dedicated Canadian. He is also the founder of our foundation. The foundation was conceived in 1992 by Hamilton Southam, Order of Canada. He had lived in France for some years. He served in World War II as a forward observation artillery officer with the Royal 22nd Regiment. While he was looking at the celebrations that took place on June 6, he noticed the Americans and the British were all celebrated in the city of Caen, when, in fact, Canadians, the largest contributor along the beaches, and the liberators of Caen itself, were ignored. To say he is a proud Canadian is an understatement, but it affected him, and with that began the founding of our Canadian Battlefields Foundation. Its firstname was the Battle of Normandy Foundation. It was founded in 1992 in the company of about four people.

They came together in 1992 at the Ottawa Army Officers' Mess with about 100 people and founded the Battle of Normandy Foundation with the aim of celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the Battle of Normandy in 1994.

The first president nominated was an interesting gentleman, a fine Canadian, also with an Order of Canada, General Roland Reid. He was a formidable fighter during the Second World War. He was one of those people called ``CANLOAN officers,'' and he fought with a British regiment. He ended up on D-Day on our flank in a brigade beside the Canadians, commanding a company at that time. He is a remarkable person. They proposed him as the first president and he did a marvellous job.

We have done a great deal of work since then. Our mission of memorializing to ensure that Canada's presence is recognized in France has not changed over the years.

One of the biggest things they did for that fiftieth anniversary was to establish the Canadian Garden at Le Mémorial. The Canadian Garden was designed by Canadian architectural students at a place called Le Mémorial, which in fact became the memorial of the city of Caen as to what happened there. In the handout, you can see a very bad picture of the memorial itself. The names of the towns behind it are important. Thereare 202 communes of Normandy that were liberated by Canadians. Few Canadians know that; a lot of Normans do. That was one of the aims. In 1995 as well, in the note I point out that the Prime Minister of the time, the Honourable Jean Chrétien, officially opened that particular site.

The foundation's main purpose was to remember, commemorate and educate. As things evolved, we found that it was important that this education aspect change and become predominant so that we could remember and then commemorate. The first bunch of noble governors of the foundation was a list of about 30 people, 15 of which were Second World War veterans — army, navy and air force — and now we have something like 42, which are listed in that annex of the presentation I gave you. Of those 42, only four are Second World War veterans that were on that first board 10 years ago. I think it is also indicative that the efforts we are making in our country are that much more important as people like us grow older. It is that inevitability that we face. That is part of the reason why we changed in 2003 to the name of the Canadian Battlefields Foundation to commemorate all battles of the 20th century, beginning with World War I and onwards.

Will the foundation change its focus to all battles henceforth and thereafter? It may. However, at the present time we want to focus on only the battles of the 20th century. It also means we will focus beyond Normandy, of course, to the naval and air battles, to Italy and to places such as Burma, Korea and so on in the years to come.

In 1994, the foundation awarded their first bursariesto 12 students. The foundation received contributions from major donors and it was foreseen at that particular time that a trust fund of about $600,000 would be able to give the bursaries to 12 or so students every year to go there and study. What do they study? I will get to that in a moment.

Effectively, the bursaries started in 1994 with that first group. When a student is elected, if you go to our website — which I encourage you to do — you will see four things that are important. One is that it is a national competition. Students from 35 universities across Canada are taking part this year. Second, students pay part of their way. It is not a freebie, so it avoids the tourists.

Students must do three things. They must study an operational battle of the Second World War or First World War, such as like the D-day landing: the logistics and so on. They must also study and present a tactical battle: What happened to the Seaforth Highlanders or the Calgary Highlanders? Third, and I suggest the most emotional one for students who have had the privilege of going over there, is that they must study from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and their wonderful website a Canadian in one of their cemeteries and do a study on who that person was and where the person came from. Also, part of the mission is to look back on the family now. Who are they? What have they done? Did they know about their cousin, uncle or son? I can tell you, from the times when I was over there, no one leaves without a tear in their eye when those students are presenting, including some of the toughest old soldiers and veterans around, and the students. It is emotionally very heavy.

We have gone from 12 to 16 bursaries since the founding. We have also increased our contribution in the sense that we now participate with the Historica and Veterans Affairs Canada. The high school teachers' course is something that again looks at building this background of military history teaching at all of our schools at various levels. It is an important element. We do that with Historica and Historica makes the selection. They are looking at selection now so it is fairer, and the selection system is similar to ours. We contribute financially.

More important, we contribute the organizers, the teachers and the historians. We are blessed in our foundation. If you look at the list of people who have gone on these various tours and contributed, they are people such as Jack Granatstein, Des Morton, Terry Copp, Marc Milner at the University of New Brunswick, Michel Fortmann at the University of Montreal, and people from right across Canada who are extremely good teachers.

I recently went on a trip to Calgary and Edmonton at the beginning of January, and while I was there I had the privilege of meeting four professors. The thing that most strikes me is that the program started in 1994 and all four professors were graduates of the Canadian Battlefields Foundation, all of them with PhDs and beyond, teaching at the major universities across Alberta at this time. To me, that program is building a network that is solid, continuous and absolutely effective.

I will talk to you about one person because people make all the difference. A lady called Laurel Halliday is a single mother from Red Deer, Alberta, and a Westerner through and through. She is living in what I call the Mason-Dixon Line in Alberta between Edmonton and Calgary. She is from a working background. She told the story of a Fort Garry Horse soldier, which really struck me at the time, but she also confessed to being on the labour side of Canadian thinking, which she said is out of character. Another time, she was presented with her PhD by David Burkeson, who was her mentor. He said to her that they had never had a social conversation, and she said, ``I do not think we would agree socially.''

This person reflected to me the kind of objectives we have in the foundation, to ensure we have people in the future who are sensitive, knowledgeable, and that have the character and the love of their country.

They also need to recognize that the most important thing we have done in this world as Canadians is that we have continuously contributed volunteers — and I emphasize, volunteers — who have lost their lives in the service of something. Maybe they did it because they needed a bit of money at the time, but I can tell you when they start shooting bullets, those things become second place. These volunteers fought second to none, they fought hard and they still do today.

Our Canadian Battlefields Foundation continues to do that. We have sites that I have shown you in the various displays. We contribute to major sites and take part in annual events. The first site we go to is the Place de l'Ancienne Boucherie, which is right in the centre of the city of Caen. It is remarkable because it is a simple place with a stone of about four feet high with a plaque on it; however, it depicts the arrival of General Sidney Volpe Radley Walters, Military Cross, getting out of his tank. The moment he got out of his tank was the moment the place was liberated. When he got out of his tank, people came out from under chairs in basements and all the rest of it.

When we were there, the president of France referred to Caen as ``la ville martyre de la France.'' He meant it. Pictures of that time show Caen was completely devastated. The fact is that Canadians go there and they are celebrated and every year we put flowers on the monument. The mayor, deputy mayor and everyone is there. Still today, after all the hoopla is gone, the mayor still thinks highly of the celebration, and makes a point to be there.

The other one is Abbaye d'Ardenne, which we might want to speak about later. It is a location where the 12th SS Panzer under Kurt Meyer murdered 20 Canadians and their sacrifice is commemorated every year. As we read out the names, the students we bring over there put a maple leaf on the monument.It is touching. You may wish to ask me about a wonderful man, Mr. Vicot. There is the monument and the memorial itself, the garden, which is the focal point of what we do.

There are 50 or 60 publications that have been published as well as 28 books, 43 scholarly articles, 88 academic references,56 general public talks, and 19 op-ed pieces in newspapers. Those are my ``gee-whiz'' facts. If you ask me the details, I can give you some but not all of them. That is only an example of what the graduates of our course have performed.

I will close by reminding everybody that this foundation is all about people. It is about a wonderful Canadian who started it for a good reason. If you look at the board of directors, with the possible exception of somebody whose last name begins with ``A,'' there are marvellous Canadians on that board. They are dedicated and contribute a lot.

The $600,000 grew to $650,000 two years ago. Yesterday, we reached $937,000. By the time we reach $1 million, we will be able to subsidize the 16 bursaries almost ad perpetuum . In order to provide the high school programs and so on, we may require a small subsidy. In this day and age, it is difficult to gather money for foundations and funding of that nature. People would rather donate to a bursary this year and look at donating something more in three years, so we need to achieve a balance.

I would be remiss if I did not thank publicly in this committee Veterans Affairs Canada. Since the inception of the Canadian Battlefields Foundation, the department has helped it tremendously. I think we have probably provided some services to them, but under no circumstances has their support been lacking. For many years, the guides at Le Mémorial were completely funded. Normally, these guides were veterans from our own courses who went to Le Mémorial the following summer and brought Canadians, veterans and their families to Le Mémorial to explain to them Canada's contribution there.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has always been a high point for us. Not one student that walks away from that place does not recognize the care, love, and attention paid by that organization for the 5,000 Canadians that lost their lives, particularly in the Battle of Normandy that ended on August 29. Those moments are dear to us all.

Thank you for this opportunity. I have opinions on where we should go with commemoration in the years to come, and what the challenges are. I am open to questions.

Should you wish to know how our students feel, I have brought our newsletters. In those newsletters, you will find comments taken from the reports. That was the fourth report. We do not tell students until the course is almost over that they must write a report about what they thought. The reports are available to you if you wish to see them at a later time.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Major-General Addy. The members of the committee know well the good work that the Canadian Battlefields Foundation does, and you are to be congratulated on that. Please pass that on to the members of your board.

Perhaps we can hear from Mr. Bradley Hall from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission before we open the floor to questions.

Bradley N. Hall, Secretary-General, Commonwealth War Graves Commission: Thank you. My job title is Secretary- General, Canadian Agency, Commonwealth War Graves Commission. It is rather grand and suggests an organization here in Canada far larger than it actually is, but I like it.

I am a graduate of Le Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean and served 21 years in Canada's army. Upon retirement in 1992, I joined the commission and have been its secretary-general since 2003.

It is a pleasure for me to appear before the subcommittee today. I think the commission is not well-known in Canada, as most Canadians naturally seek information concerning Canada's war dead from the federal department established to do exactly that, Veterans Affairs Canada. We tend to work behind the scenes and do not do any significant self-promotion except the goodwill generated from doing what we hope is a good job day in and day out.

The commission has a clear mandate, which was set out when it was established by Royal Charter in World War I. Its duties are to mark and maintain the graves of the members of the forces of the Commonwealth who died during the two wars, to build and maintain memorials to the dead whose graves are unknown and to keep records and registers. The cost is shared by the partner governments, those of Australia, Canada, India, New Zealand, United Kingdom, and South Africa, in proportions based on the numbers of their graves.

The war periods are clearly defined: August 4, 1914, toAugust 31, 1921, and September 3, 1939, to December 31, 1947. They were developed by agreement and are based on the start and end dates of the two wars: for example, the official dates of the end of World War I versus the armistice, and a period that recognized the long demobilization periods of the participating governments' vast armed forces, as well as later deaths due to service.

I want to stress the fundamental principles upon which the commission's work is based. These principles are as follows: that each of the dead should be commemorated individually by name both on a headstone over the grave or by inscription on a memorial; that the headstones and memorials should be permanent; that the headstones should be uniform; and that no distinction should be made on account of military or civil rank, race, or creed. While these principles may seem self-evident now, it is important to realize that before World War I, there was a strong social distinction in the manner of commemorating casualties of the then British Empire. These commission principles recognize the common sacrifice of all who died regardless of their background.

The principles are also the fundamental reason why Canada, along with its Commonwealth partners, adopted a nonrepatriation policy of its war dead, a policy that Canada continued to follow, even for its peacetime casualties, until the 1970s. Finally, it is a principle that the commission asked Canada to reaffirm when Canada made its request to the commission to repatriate the remains of an unknown soldier, and Canada did in fact do so.

As I said, the commission is financed in the main through annual grants from participating governments. Canada's annual contribution is about 10 per cent of our total budget, or approximately $8 million for the current fiscal year.

Canada's 110,000 war dead are interred in 73 countries in some6,500 cemeteries of the 1.7 million Commonwealth war dead that we care for in 150 countries in 23,000 cemeteries. This dollar amount equates to a cost of $74 per war dead, commemorated to a standard that draws appreciative reviews from a varied constituency.

How long will the organization last? Our royal charter establishes us in perpetuity. I find it difficult to imagine the first government that might put up its hand, so to speak, and declare that it no longer wishes to support our mandate.

Commission employees refer to our work as fulfilling a debt of honour, and I know the vast majority of Canadians agree that fulfilling this debt is the right thing to do.

The commission is organized for operational purposes into areas or agencies, each of which reports to the commission's head office in Maidenhead, United Kingdom. The cemeteries and memorials are truly Commonwealth, they are not national, and a national title within the cemetery name does not confirm a national responsibility or ownership.

For example, Beny-sur-Mer and Holten Canadian war cemeteries are commission cemeteries. Their maintenance and security of tenure with the host countries or France and the Netherlands, respectively, are with the commission, not with Canada, and the responsibility for their upkeep rests with the commission.

Interestingly, there are only two commission cemeteries or plots around the world where only Canadians are buried. One is in Agira, Sicily, and the other is a small cemetery of 44 burials in Contalmaison, France.

Agency services are tasks we perform for partner governments or, occasionally, regimental associations outside of our two world war charter tasks. We assist Canada, for example, by performing the routine maintenance of Vimy, Beaumont-Hamel, and other Canadian and Newfoundland World War I battlefield memorial sites in France and Belgium.

We also maintain post-war graves of Canadian servicemen and dependents buried overseas when the Canadian non- repatriation policy was still in effect, again until the 1970s. This maintenance includes some early United Nations Emergency Forces casualties buried in Gaza War Cemetery.

The commission is not responsible for Korea. The UN administers a separate cemetery in Busan. However, we care for Commonwealth casualties of the Korean war who died in Japan and are buried in Yokohama War Cemetery.

For about a year now, the commission has been engaged in maintenance of graves in South Africa from the South African War, under contract with the U.K. Ministry of Defence. Canada, through Veterans Affairs Canada, ensures that its graves from this war are maintained by the same contract, and this contact was put in place for an initial five- year term.

We are always involved to some degree with two Canadian departments in the cases of identification of remains. If new discoveries are made, the authority rests with the Department of National Defence, Directorate of History and Heritage. If the remains are already in a grave, in other words, if it is an identification theory, then Veterans Affairs Canada is the lead department. I stress again that our policy, and thus Canada's, remains constant: No exhumations or repatriation of remains is permitted.

Now as the Secretary-General of the Canadian agency, my aim is to carry out the commission's charter within North America. I run essentially a small business, which probably equates more closely to a not-for-profit association than a government department. Of course, we are all employees of the commission, not the Government of Canada.

I have eight permanent staff and an additional four or five seasonal folks. My mandate encompasses the commemoration of 19,000 war dead in 3,300 cemeteries and on five major memorials in Halifax, Ottawa, Victoria, Montreal and St. John's. It also includes a Stone of Remembrance in Winnipeg's Brookside Cemetery, as well as 26 Crosses of Sacrifice. These two types of memorials are common to war cemeteries overseas.

There are war dead in all U.S. states except three, Arkansas, Delaware and Nevada, and in all provinces and the Yukon. They are mostly Canadian, but a significant number are other Commonwealth burials, mostly from the World War II British Commonwealth Air Training Plan and the U.S. Arnold Plan, plus U.S. citizens who served with the Canadian Forces. Why are there burials here even though the non-repatriation policy was and is in effect? Disease, training accidents, and death subsequent to return but within the war years all contributed to that toll. There are more Canadian war dead in Canada than Italy, the Netherlands, Germany and Hong Kong combined. I often refer to us as caring for the hidden cost of war.

We have significant dealings with Veterans Affairs Canada, the general public and the press. We deal with thousands of inquiries annually, although this aspect of our work has changed since we placed our records on the website in 1999. As an example, we had 450,000 hits on that website in October alone. We now spend a significant amount of time on records verification.

We also conduct maintenance to veterans' graves here in Canada under formal agreement with Veterans Affairs Canada. Since January 1, 2004, we have conducted a veterans' grave inventory throughout the country on behalf of Veterans Affairs Canada. This inventory has been rolled into an additional cyclical maintenance contract that will be phased in by province as the graves are inventoried.

Finally, it is worth mentioning that the Department of National Defence, Veterans Affairs Canada, the Beechwood Cemetery Foundation and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission have agreed to partner and link their activities at what is now simply called the National Military Cemetery, as opposed to the National Military Cemetery of the Canadian Forces.

The commission is not some foreign body. In terms of policy of the war dead of the two world wars, the commission is Canada and Canada is the commission. It is essentially a cooperative of like-minded Commonwealth nations who agree to an approach towards treatment and commemoration of the war dead of the two world wars. The commission has proven itself efficient in its business practices, and its maintenance standards are admired around the world. It is an organization with several oversights, if you will. The board consists of the high commissioners of the participating governments resident in London, plus a distinguished group of folks appointed by royal warrant for fixed terms. The U.K. Ministry of Defence, which is our largest contributor, conducts audits, and audits are conducted as well by our own U.K.-based auditor, Grant Thornton. Finally, from a uniquely Canadian point of view, Veterans Affairs Canada — through whose votes the Commission receives its annual grant — scrutinizes estimates and expenditures and staff attend our annual financial screening meeting.

Canada receives value for money. For an annual costof $74 per grave, war dead of the two world wars are commemorated to a standard that receives universal approval. Because of the commission's worldwide organization and staff in place, we are able to assist VAC in other non-charter tasks. I have mentioned the maintenance of Canadian and Newfoundland battle memorials. We also care for non-war graves in Europe, the Middle East and Africa prior to Canada changing its repatriation policy, and one-off projects such as grounds work in Abbaye d'Ardenne in France, and indeed the recent Vimy restoration project where we seconded a technician, provided advice and trained those re- inscribing the names.

My office seeks to assist VAC in any manner the department might think is helpful, and two contracts are in place presently for work on veterans burials throughout the country.

We are in continual contact with Canadians who seek information and we provide a variety of pamphlets, information sheets or, indeed, simply a sympathetic ear from time to time for folks who call the office.

Our annual report is circulated in November. I have provided copies to the committee clerk. When people ask me what the Commission does, I tell them that my organization is the guardian of a significant portion of Canada's heritage, its military heritage, and I am proud to do so.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Hall. That was helpful and informative.

Gentlemen, we have about half an hour for questions. We will begin with the deputy chair of the subcommittee, Senator Day.

Senator Day: All of us feel that the work you are doing is extremely important and valuable, and we thank you for that.

Can each of you tell me how you avoid duplicating effort? For example, I am thinking of the Canadian Battlefields Foundation. I do not believe, General Addy, that you look after any grave sites in particular, but you do look after monuments and memorials. You mentioned, and you invited us to ask more questions with respect to, the Abbaye d'Ardenne. However Mr. Hall, in his presentation, also mentioned that the commission does some work at the Abbaye. Can you explain the relationship in these areas where there may be some overlap?

MGen. Addy: We are helpful to units that want to commemorate various battles and so on. For monuments in respect of the dead or headstones, we point out things now and then to the staff there, but that is the limit of our normal relationship. There is a definite difference between looking after the fallen and the cemeteries of the fallen, and a plaque that commemorates a battle site or something of that nature. Both of them commemorate, but there is a significant distinction and we are very much aware of that. We worked in cooperation, and the Abbaye d'Ardenne is a good example. Abbaye d'Ardenne started years ago when a service battalion commanding officerin 4th Canadian Infantry Brigade went there and asked why nothing was there? He ended up building that little monument. Those of you who have gone there know it is very simple. It is the one that should be there as far as I am concerned. It is overwhelming. With the aging veterans going over there, there was a requirement or a concern for safety aspects of the Abbaye d'Ardenne. Those who have been there have seen the roots: the trees keep getting bigger and there is a risk. The aim was to clean it up and make it safer but maintain the bucolic atmosphere: the solemnity of the trees on the outskirts of the Abbaye d'Ardenne. That was the intent. Veterans Affairs Canada was interested in that project at that particular time and asked for our help. We had to do this so nobody has an accident and so the place is properly marked. There were several small criteria like that. Because of the people that are in Europe most of the time and know the contractors and know the people around and have that skill of working with local governments and so on, Mr. Hall and his group offered to help us, particularly with the Abbaye d'Ardenne. That is how that particular relationship built up.

Senator, that is the gist of my perception of the differences. There is a clear distinction with what the Commonwealth War Graves Commission does. The commission does outstanding work, and we do not want to compete with that class of work. The relationship between Veterans Affairs Canada and the foundation is one of understanding what each role is. Our main function is educating Canadians and providing a service to various units when it comes to plaques and viewing points, which are also useful to us for teaching. That is the atmosphere we have.

Mr. Hall: From my aspect of our work, we do two types of work: the agency service care — the memorials and cemeteries — and the contracting work. Essentially, because we have people all over the world who are well-versed in stone, contracting in the various countries and things like that, we want to help participating governments. Normally, Veterans Affairs Canada contracts us outside of our charter work to do particular work. In this particular case, it is exactly as Major-General Addy mentioned. They went via VAC. VAC contracted with us. We did the work and were paid for it and we charged accordingly.

Senator Day: During your presentation, you mentioned Canadians in Sicily and in one place in France. What was peculiar about that?

Mr. Hall: I was trying to describe the relationship with the host countries about who owns the land on which the cemeteries and memorials are located. The land belongs to the commission. Those cemeteries were handed over to the commission as the Canadian army advanced through those countries during the Second World War, so they belong to us. We own them.

Senator Day: An example is the Vimy Memorial, after the First World War.

Mr. Hall: Vimy is slightly different in that it is a Canadian national memorial that VAC is responsible for and owns. Interestingly enough, though, we often comment in the commission that the only mistake our founder made was in permitting the commemoration of individuals by name on national memorials. In Vimy, for example, we are carrying out our mandate by commemorating the individual, by inscribing names, but we are doing it on a Canadian national memorial. We perform a similar task for those who died in Flanders. Their names are on the commission memorial in Ypres.

Senator Day: General Addy, you indicated that, in the future, the Canadian Battlefields Foundation will be involved in, and assist in, education and battlefields other than in Normandy.

MGen. Addy: We already are involved, in Italy. In 2002, we made a trip to Italy. We are planning another Italian trip. We are also planning a trip combining Korea, Hong Kong and Burma, if we can. That is the next trip. I am planning an interesting tour with Dr. Marc Milner from UNB. Many Canadians served in the navy and air force, and touring a battlefield of the air and in the middle of the ocean is difficult, so we are looking at a potential tour showing the training that took place in North America. The tour then goes to England to view the RAF Bomber Command and one of the ports, and then, hopefully ends up in Murmansk or something like that. Those things are in our minds, none of which have been discussed in detail yet, but some clever folks are looking at the pros and cons. Canadian citizens are very interested. A classmate of mine, Michael Potter, said, ``If you need to have the old aircraft flying around, bring your students here and tell us about it, and by all means I will throw lunch on.''

Those kinds of real human relationships make the experience both interesting and as complete as possible.

Going beyond that, what we do in 10 or 20 years for our people in Afghanistan or for people that have come back, I leave to a successor several years hence. I think our job now is to focus on these areas we plan to tour. I have no doubt in years to come the focus will go beyond that.

Senator Day: For clarification, Michael Potter is the same person that has the hangar with the antique aircraft in Gatineau in the Ottawa region.

Senator Atkins: Thank you, gentlemen. Congratulations on your good work. I have a question for Mr. Hall. Is $8 million enough money for what you do and your responsibilities?

Mr. Hall: It is now. Like everyone else, we conduct a budgeting exercise every year, and then we have financial screening meetings in the fall. Then we go to the participating governments — for example, we pass through Veterans Affairs Canada. We discuss the budgets, and what we see in terms of requirements over the short, medium and long term. Participating governments, nine times out of 10, provide the necessary money without any fuss. They have been good. Canada's contribution is particularly valued.

As an example, you can appreciate that many of our headstones dating from World War I, over 90 years old, are starting to deteriorate, with acid rain and everything else. One year, we asked for a special funding increase to fund on- site engraving teams to go throughout the world, as a more cost effective means than replacing the headstones entirely. The participating governments were good about funding that work, so my short answer is yes.

Senator Atkins: That is good news.

Mr. Mercer, we are about to celebrate the ninetieth anniversary of Vimy Ridge. Can you take us through the VAC program for the celebration?

Robert Mercer, Assistant Deputy Minister, Vimy Event 2007, Veterans Affairs Canada: I would be delighted. Perhaps I can give a quick overview of what is happening in mid-April in Europe and in Canada as well. In Europe, two main events will commemorate the ninetieth anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge, which was a significant battle.

To give some appreciation of the significance of Vimy, we had more than 10,000 Canadian casualties in a period of only four days, and we lost 3,598 men on the first day of that battle. The battle is often referred to as the birth of our nation. Definitely, it was a significant turning point for the Allies in the First World War and earned Canada a position as signatory at the Treaty of Versailles. It is that important to Canadians.

We are also dedicating a memorial as a result of havingspent $20 million restoring Vimy in past five years. Thedelegation for Canada, the Canadian contingent, is comprised of about 135 people. That is the present plan. The delegation will assemble here in Ottawa on April 4, and depart for Europe on the evening of April 5.

Four major events are happening. On Saturday, April 7, we possibly will bury the remains of two Canadian soldiers. These remains were located some time ago. We do not have 100 per cent confirmation that they are Canadian, but it looks like they are. The final work is being done by the Department of National Defence. Hopefully, with confirmation shortly, we will have a respectful burial of those soldiers on the Saturday.

An event is sponsored by the City of Arras, which is near Vimy — a Freedom of the City event with the Canadian military. In addition to the delegation from Canada, the Department of National Defence has invested money in the commemoration of the Vimy event in Europe. We will send more than 300 members of the Canadian Forces to participate in and work around the event.

We will also have an official ceremony for turning on the lights — the new lighting system at the Vimy memorial. Then, on April 9, we expect to welcome about 25,000 people at Vimy. This event is huge. We expect more than 4,000 students from across Canada. On their own, through their schools, they are raising money to go to Vimy for the commemoration of the ninetieth anniversary. This number is growing by the day.

With respect to the delegation, in terms of selection, thereis a small minister's party. An official invitation will go outto 15 veteran organizations across Canada and this practice is fairly standard. We will take 20 veterans with us to Vimy. We expect other veterans to be there for all kinds of other reasons, but the Government of Canada will sponsor the passageof 20 veterans, 16 of whom will be selected as war veterans by the major veterans' organizations across Canada.

Senator Atkins: They are not First World War veterans?

Mr. Mercer: No: Unfortunately, there are only three remaining First World War veterans in Canada, and none of them are able to travel on an excursion like this one. The youngest is 105, I believe.

We will select four members of the Canadian Forces — only four because 300 members are coming through the Department of National Defence so the Canadian Forces will be well represented. The four we select for Vimy will represent the four regiments in which a member was awarded the Victoria Cross at Vimy. That is the significance of that selection.

In addition, 20 members of the RCMP will join us. There is a large staff — 25 to 28 — to provide support to the delegation, but primarily to support the major events happening there.

In Canada, there is a ceremony at the National War Memorial. Hopefully, there will be ceremonies, now being worked on with our provinces and territories across Canada, in all our capital cities. More than 25 separate, in-Canada events are planned to commemorate the ninetieh anniversary as well.

The Chairman: Is there any opportunity of providing at least a photograph of, if not a message from, one or more of the three remaining First World War veterans to have during the ceremony at Vimy itself?

Mr. Mercer: That is a nice thought. I will look into that possibility.

Senator Atkins: In terms of the delegation, how many of those people are aware that they are going? I know the RCMP members going; they were informed long ago because of the preparation required to take that contingent, but what about the others?

Mr. Mercer: The 15 veteran organizations are aware — they have been aware for at least a few weeks by phone. They will receive a formal letter of invitation that I think was signed yesterday by our minister.

In addition, in terms of the veterans, the selection process is well under way on the part of the veterans' organizations. Some of them, such as the Royal Canadian Legion, have already submitted the veterans that we asked them to select.

Senator Atkins: Are any members of Parliament in that delegation?

Mr. Mercer: There is the minister's contingent, which at this point is the minister, a deputy minister of the department and perhaps one or two support people.

As to members of Parliament, whether government members, opposition members or members of the Senate, that is something that must be raised with our minister at this point. There is some thought as to what this delegation will comprise, but no final decision at this time.

Senator Atkins: I assume they need to make the decision soon.

Mr. Mercer: Yes.

The Chairman: Perhaps I can speak to the minister and see if he has come to any resolution on that matter.

Senator Day: The minister knows our interest.

The Chairman: Yes, he does. I will prod him a little to see if I can find out anything further; and I will communicate it immediately.

Senator Atkins: The only point I would make is I think I am probably the only member of Parliament who has a direct descendent who fought at Vimy.

The Chairman: That is your father?

Senator Atkins: Yes, so I think I would have some consideration in view of that fact.

Senator Dallaire: And from the right party.

Mr. Mercer: Only you could say that, Senator Dallaire. I might add that the level of interest in the event at Vimy is extremely high. It has gone beyond anything we had imagined.

We have requests from across the country — from people who were there as students at the inauguration ceremony in 1936. They are no longer students — some of these people are in their 80s — but they are interested in going to Vimy. We have all kinds of stories of people who have relatives who fought at the Battle of Vimy Ridge.

It is not possible in terms of the limited dollars to take everyone who feels they should be there. However, I think it is useful for you to know that the requests are coming in from all across the country. The interest is incredible.

The Chairman: I understand also there are at least as many students as those who lost their lives at Vimy who are going there, having raised money privately to do so.

Mr. Mercer: That is correct. It is a nice commentary on commemoration generally. There are all kinds of storylines here, but in 1936, 8,000 veterans — about 6,000 from Canada directly and another 2,000 Canadian veterans from the United Kingdom — went to the inauguration ceremony in 1936. Those people are no longer with us.

In 2007, as an indication to veterans that their legacy is protected and it is being guarded into the future, morethan 4,000 youth from this country will be there. They will learn a great deal while they are there; they will not only attend the ceremony. They will do special projects for their schools that have something to do with the Battle of Vimy Ridge.

The Chairman: Will the events be televised in Canada?

Mr. Mercer: Yes.

Senator Atkins: You did not mention that the Queen will be there.

Mr. Mercer: I did not mention it because I do not have official confirmation, but Her Majesty the Queen is invited. A number of other heads of state have been invited as well — the President of France, for example. It is only a matter of receiving final confirmation before there is a public announcement about the heads of state list for the Vimy event.

Senator Downe: I want to follow up on a comment Mr. Hall made in his presentation, although I suspect the answer may come from officials of Veterans Affairs Canada. I am interested in the care of the graves for those who fought in the Boer War, although I notice the name has now been changed to the South African War.

The mandate for the commission is from August 1914 on, so obviously that is outside your mandate. However, in your annual report and in your presentation today, you talked about the work you have started in South Africa. Can you explain that? Are you taking care of the graves of the Canadians killed in that war?

Mr. Hall: We are. That is something we are doing as a contractor. Like the Canadian agency, there is a South African agency with a secretary, which was established to care for the First World War and Second World War graves that were located in South Africa and Namibia. That is the territory of that agency.

Canada's national requirement and wish is to care for the Canadian service graves of the South African war, formerly the Boer War. Our organization was already in place. This was one of the occasions where Veterans Affairs Canada came to us, in this case in conjunction with the Ministry of Defence of the United Kingdom, and said, ``Can you do this work for us as an agency service contractor?'' We said yes and we signed the contract for five years. We do that work now with commission staff.

Senator Downe: This work is not included in the $8 million Canadian; this is over and above that?

Mr. Hall: No, this is a contract.

Senator Downe: Are there any other countries, Mr. Mercer, where graves of Canadians are not being attended to by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission?

Mr. Mercer: Yes, there are our graves in Korea, for example. We have commissions in place with respect to those graves that operate at the same standard we expect from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Senator Downe: There was concern a number of years ago that the South African graves were allowed to deteriorate. Currently, are there graves around the world in need of additional care?

Mr. Mercer: There are but not to the same extent as the issues we faced in Korea. There were instances of vandalism that went over a number of years. We have struggled to find the best arrangement to guarantee the care of those graves. There has been publicity recently around a situation of vandalism that goes back about a year ago. We decided that if we could have this arrangement with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission we could make this problem go away, which it has.

When there is an issue regarding the state of a Canadian grave anywhere around the world, we are there right away to look for a solution. Things do happen. There is vandalism. We have had accidental bombings that have had an impact on Canadian graves.

Senator Downe: Is the annual report of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission available in both official languages in Canada?

Mr. Hall: Interestingly enough, it is available in French this year for the first time. Again, because we are not federal government employees, we do not follow the guidelines of the Government of Canada in terms of bilingual requirements. Most of the information that people need can be found through the Veterans Affairs Canada website, which is bilingual.

We publish our annual report in Dutch, French, German and several other languages to relate to places where we have target audiences and large concentrations of graves. My office tries to straddle the government's language policies respecting the two official languages in Canada. We are launching a website that is in Canada's two official languages.

I have brought additional material today that shows the French and English. In fact, I brought several copies of the commission's annual report in French, which we received only after the invitation to attend here today.

Senator Dallaire: I have a question that goes back into history and another one that goes into the future.

Vimy Ridge is an instrument that is out there demonstrating the maturing of a nation. It is also an instrument of national unity and a significant historic reference for new Canadians trying to figure out what this Canada is and how it was started.

How do you ``Canadianize'' Vimy Ridge in Canada? A whole series of events are planned here in Canada: I do not want to go through them. However, having that great monument and the capability there does not mean it is as evident here in Canada. When I sat on the review committee for the Vimy work, I raised the issue that we must bring something of that commemoration here — more than what there is, which is, monuments or elements that make up the monument that are in the war museum.

In 10 years' time, we will celebrate the one hundredth anniversary of this event. To do something substantive such as making a replica or some sort of modernization of that monument here in Canada so people in this country can see it and it can be part of the heritage in this country, we needabout 10 years to obtain the funds and ideas. Could it not be part of the ninetieth celebration to create a committee or entity immediately to look at the one hundredth anniversary with the aim of creating something permanent in Canada to reflect Vimy Ridge?

Mr. Mercer: Presently, that particular thought is not on the agenda, although it is interesting. If this country wants to move towards a patriation in some sense, namely, a more visible exposure of the Vimy memorial and something more available here, to start with we would like to see community interest. From there, government would be in a position to assess whether we want to partner with that.

On the matter of bringing Vimy home, you make a good point. We say this generally about our memorials around the world. We are working on a project now that I think you will find of some interest. We are developing a virtual tour of the Vimy memorial that will be on our website. The venture is costly, but it will provide Canadians with an opportunity to walk up the steps of the memorial virtually, view all the statues and understand the meaning of the pylons. That is another way of bringing the message home. Approximately 4,000 students will bring home all kinds of information and bring alive the notion of Vimy in their communities, which I think they did by raising the money to go there in the first place.

Senator Dallaire, some things have been designed to put more focus on the matter of in-Canada commemoration of what we did overseas.

Senator Dallaire: I am into that 100 per cent. My only concern is that we do not wait until the ninety-ninth year to look at the one hundredth anniversary that is coming. We can start looking at some realistic demonstration of that event, either modernized or stylized. I am very much for creating ``Friends of Vimy.'' When I was deputy commander of the army, I tried to convince the military association, in particular, to create a ``Friends of Vimy'' by putting ex-army commanders on the board. I hope the government does not wait for society to look at those things. Government may want to start a file now for the one hundredth anniversary.

I now want to go to Major-General Addy, with the Canadian Battlefields Foundation, the Last Post Fund, the national cemeteries, Veterans Affairs Canada and the new policy that Mr. Hall raised on repatriating remains. Essentially, the policy we brought in is that we will no long bury our dead overseas. Someone may place a caveat of skill on that but skill was not a factor in that policy: we bring them all back.

How do those things all link together for a future commemoration process? Is there a body that will take the commonwealth war graves concept and say, ``We will be committed into the complex operations of the future. What do we do about the new generation veterans? What methodology do we use to commemorate them?''

We cannot put up monuments in Afghanistan and leave cairns and so on, as we have done in different places. However, those missions are real to Canadians, as are the casualties. The question is: How do you commemorate that sacrifice to humanity versus the sacrifice in defending ourselves in World War I and World War II? We are now sacrificing ourselves not only to defend ourselves but also to move humanity forward. How do we commemorate that in this country beyond just the monument we presently have to the UN?

MGen. Addy: The idea of commemoration does not involve only cemeteries.

It is more than that. It is showing students what happened, and having that information in our schools. The most important thing for us is the people. What Mr. Hall does is to provide the respect in the various cemeteries, as we have done now in the Beechwood Cemetery.

As we go forward and as we change policies, all these things have little changes and switches. It is my conviction now that the most important thing for commemoration, no matter where we go and how far forward we go, is to maintain in our schools the teaching of history and the military part of history. It is difficult at the federal level.

I missed one point I want to stress to you, that I think is important. Terry Copp and Michel Fortmann put together the first university credit course in Canadian military history two years ago that included battlefield tours and actually seeing things, and the course is continuing. Those kinds of efforts are worth the investment.

Where do we see ourselves going henceforth? As the Battle of Normandy Foundation became the Canadian Battlefields Foundation, I think with the elements you are talking about, the world's foundation of conflict or where we have been, will remain important. Please permit me, senator, those things do not involve our own security. They involve the security of the world, I grant you. I think part of Canadian history, and our contributions, are somewhat personal, national and focused on our own psyche as Canadians. That is a continuum.

I will not go further, because I think each generation has a bit to bring to that. I think we are looking at that kind of thing. We are looking at Bosnia and other things that have occurred more recently that are more news than history yet. Those kinds of things will later be part of the foundation.

For the cemeteries, I will not take anything away from Mr. Hall, but I am amazed every place in go. I was fortunate to visit the Pacific Rim on behalf of the Canadian Forces: Hong Kong and places like that. I was impressed with the work they do. I was also impressed by a place called the Union of Myanmar, which is run by pirates. The only clean place in the country was the cemetery run by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. It was frightening. I will not editorialize more.

Mr. Hall: Strictly speaking, we are stuck in a time warp.

Senator Dallaire: That is why I am not worried about you people. I am worried more about the others.

Mr. Hall: When we are asked, we do things. For example, we built the cemetery in the Falkland Islands for the Brits in the Falklands war. When Canada's national military cemetery was designed, Commodore Davidson came to our offices and sought advice from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in terms of design and architecture. Because we are limited to cemeteries, we see the four partner groups working together of the Department of National Defence, VAC, Beechwood Cemetery and us.

MGen Addy: There are other players as well. There are people like the Juno Beach Foundation. There are a lot of foundations out there. If the aim is to centralize those kinds of things going forward, remember that you are talking about volunteers. You may suggest it if you wish but you will have more —

Senator Dallaire: I am looking at future needs, versus past ones, and how we prepare nationally for that.

Do you agree with having a permanent guard sentry at the National War Memorial, now that we have an unknown soldier there?

MGen Addy: Yes, but I do not want to be him today.

The Chairman: Thank you very much. I am sorry I have to cut the discussion short. I am sure there are questions other members would like to ask. In view of the time, the Senate sitting in five minute, we must get up to the Hill.

Thank you, each witness for coming today. It has been helpful and constructive for us. Perhaps informally, we can ply with other questions. We are looking forward to the Vimy celebrations and rededication on Easter Monday. I hope all of us can be there in body. Certainly, we will be there in spirit.

I ask senators to remain behind for 30 seconds so I can provide a quick indication of what our future business looks like.

The committee adjourned.